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Mineralogical Classificationhancockite
29th Dec 2006 18:11 UTCEtienne Medard Expert
Other nomenclature modifications include:
Niigataite (old) = clinozoisite-(Sr) (new)
Tweddillite (old) = manganipiemontite-(Sr) (new)
Strontiopiemontite (old) = piemontite-(Sr) (new)
Androsite-(La) (old) = manganiandrosite-(La) (new)
Etienne
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Armbruster T, Bonazzi P, Akasaka M, Bermanec V, Chopin Ch, Gieré R, Heuss-Assbichler S, Liebscher A, Menchetti S, Pan Y, Pasero, M (2006) Recommended nomenclature of epidote-group minerals. Eur. J. Mineral. 2006, 18, 551-567
29th Dec 2006 18:24 UTCMarco E. Ciriotti Manager
The same for all other mineral revised/renamed by the Epidote Subcommittee.
29th Dec 2006 19:49 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager
29th Dec 2006 20:03 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager
14th Jul 2007 05:40 UTCSteven M Kuitems DMD
14th Jul 2007 09:30 UTCErnst A.J. Burke
26th Jul 2007 00:25 UTCJeffrey de Fourestier Expert
I find it sad that well-established names (often for very deserving indiduals) are simply being renamed because it soots some other mineralogist's nomenclature preference. I find it deeply disrespectful to the original authors, the person for whon the original name was given, the mineral's longstanding stature (ie the what defines it as a separate species hasn't sustanttially changed), and the original IMA voters that approved some of these names. All the conservatism that Spencer worked so hard to maintain seem spat apon with these types of unnecessary name changes. Placing minerals within proper groups that may recently have been understood is one thing but destroying a valid minerals original history by stripping it of a perfectly valid name seems to me to not be a valid contribution to the science.
There, I've said it. Now tto the fan......
Jeffrey
26th Jul 2007 01:08 UTCChester S. Lemanski, Jr.
....JUST MY OPINION!
Zdenekite = Lavendulan-Pb, e.g.
26th Jul 2007 01:09 UTCJason B. Smith Expert
I was just sitting here trying to think of a way to justify the need to simplify things by renaming species but nothing I typed made since when it came down to dishonoring someone for whom a valid species has been named, especially for such a long time. I know there are valid reasons for the need to do so but it is no less disgraceful in my opinion.
26th Jul 2007 17:44 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager
On the other hand, I see no need to panic about the "loss" of ones favorite names, like hancockite, or (in my case) niigataite. There is no reason why Franklin collectors have to stop using the name hancockite. We can easily get used to the idea of having parallel "common names" and "scientific names" for the same material. If any future collector is confused by "hancockite" versus "epidote-(Pb)", a quick check on the internet will reveal that they are synonyms and end his confusion.
In the biological world nobody has a problem with "dog" being the same species as "canis lupus familiaris". If we human beings can somehow handle this "confusion" for the million or so named living species, cant mineral collectors handle having more than one name for the comparatively pitifully small number of mineral species?
29th Aug 2007 21:53 UTCEllen Faller
I'd love to have answers to these questions, as I have to cope with the result of the name change.
30th Aug 2007 00:08 UTCChester S. Lemanski, Jr.
30th Aug 2007 09:54 UTCJacques Galvier
All criticals are always in hushed words, and it's a natural thing, with all the respect for the international mineralogical authorities, but we can also expose our feeling in clear words. We are the first and main users of the nomencature and classification.
Remember, the circus act begin in 2002 with the acceptance ot the names, among others, magnesiotaaffeite-6N’3S and ferrotaaffeite-6N’3S (nice !), instead of musgravite and pehrmanite, it was already enlightening.
For many other important groups, like labuntsovite, eudialyte, etc., no negative criticism and reactions so large and impopular. Why ?
It's perhaps not too late to turn back, for the future, all the more that the author's proposals seriously leak consistence if the aim is an unification.
Nethertheless, congratulation for armbrusterite, it's really a new structure, a new name was necessary. Except if we take a fresh look for the mechanism of classification and naming minerals in a newly complex phyllosilicates group.
Thanks to Etienne to throw again the question
Jacques
30th Aug 2007 13:14 UTCErnst A.J. Burke
Thomas Armbruster does not change mineral names for fun with the blessing of the CNMNC, and neither does any other chairman of a subcommittee handling nomenclature problems. The CNMNC was confronted, some years ago, with observations of Scott Ercit which showed that the existing nomenclature of the epidote group would lead to some serious problems. The CNMNC then asked Thomas Armbruster to chair a subcommittee to solve these problems. Specialists of this group finally proposed a new nomenclature system, which was approved by the CNMNC. We should be grateful to Thomas for cleaning up historical "mess", as in the nigerite-taaffeite group and in the epidote group.
Mineralogy is not a static object, but a living science, with continuous new discoveries and insights. This necessiates from time to time reflection on the status of specific mineral groups. The CNMMN-CNMNC has for almost 50 years produced reports on the most diverse mineral groups, and has rationalised and simplified their nomenclature. Such operations imply that mineral names sometimes have to be changed.
As for the more or less emotional sobbing on the disappearance of historical names: please take a good look at the compilations authored by Peter Bayliss and Jeffrey de Fourestier, and if you like to do so, please weep about all historical names which have been shown to be superfluous in the past 50 years!
30th Aug 2007 13:46 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder
I might be wrong on this, but I always thought the name 'ZálesÃite' was a strange choice when 'Agardite-(Ca)' was not only a more logical name, but had already been used provisionally by many people.
Are there any plans to revert this name? If not, why not?
Jolyon
30th Aug 2007 15:06 UTCErnst A.J. Burke
But we could of course discuss how zálesíite should have been named: agardite-(Ca) or calcioagardite. The latter is the current rule, the former is more practical, and the current trend is to apply this "Levinson-type" names to new minerals. We already have about 500 mineral names with such a "chemical" prefix: changing these names to a suffix-type nomenclature would not be desirable, as the advantage of changing these names would not be greater than the chaos created by changing these names.
However, in the near future some names in very common groups will be changed in this way by the CNMNC, e.g., in the apatite group.
In fact, a consistent mineral nomenclature, after all these centuries of irrational behaviour, is impossible, one can only hope to correct some minor inconsistencies. And even this humble aim is difficult. It is interesting to compare, e.g., the motives of the subcommittees on the nomenclatures for the labuntsovite and eudialyte groups. The former decided on suffix-type names, the latter on new root names, and both groups had compelling reasons for acting as they did. But the result is of course inconsistent, if one looks at the totality of mineralogy.
But at least within some groups, the nomenclature is consistent, the epidote group is a fine example.
30th Aug 2007 15:30 UTCJim Ferraiolo
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do."
30th Aug 2007 17:41 UTCMarco E. Ciriotti Manager
30th Aug 2007 21:17 UTCJim Ferraiolo
31st Aug 2007 18:42 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager
I fully support Prof. Burke reply.
"We are the first and main users of the nomencature and classification." (J. Galvier)
Wrong. Professional mineralogists are the first users, and the classifications are made by them and for them.
1st Sep 2007 03:41 UTCAndrew G. Christy Manager
just a reminder that the modified and extended Levinson system *is* now applied to some groups with no REE, both with and without parentheses depending on whetehr the suffix cations are an integral part of the structural unit or not.
Examples: pumpellyite-(Mg), chabazite-Ca.
Apart from that: I agree entirely with Uwe that professionals are the priority users of nomenclature, and with Ernst's observations about the desirability of having some sytematicity in naming, but the impossibility of having one single consistent system for all minerals all at once.
1st Sep 2007 17:51 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager
17th Sep 2007 21:04 UTCTony Nikischer 🌟 Manager
There are many "old" names no longer used, but they were cast aside by the scientific community when the material was systematically studied, usually with new and better technological aids, and found to be something else that had priority in terms of when it was named. The names were deemed superfluous because the material was found to be some other valid mineral, not because the name didn't fit some newly designed nomenclature scheme that ignores historical precedent.
The renaming of otherwise valid mineral species is change for the sake of change, and it only adds to even greater historical confusion. A great pity and a short-sighted effort, in my opinion, much like the mass discreditations that were accomplished without appropriate, tangible scientific investigation as outlined in IMA procedures.
17th Sep 2007 22:37 UTCMarco E. Ciriotti Manager
I don't agree with your point of view.
In this case, as in many others, the renaming is totally logic...
Logic is over history, in my opinion (with the max respect for history; I am Italian and our is a very long history...).
Now the epidote group represents one of the best group nomenclature example.
Ciao. Marco
2nd Oct 2007 13:32 UTCBela Feher Expert
2nd Oct 2007 13:36 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager
2nd Oct 2007 17:23 UTCJim Ferraiolo
IMA No. 07-C
Several decisions have been taken on the nomenclature of a number of mineral names < one of which is>:
The authors of new-mineral proposals should use a suffix nomenclature rather than a prefix nomenclature. Some minerals in well-known groups are to be renamed.
11th Oct 2007 02:18 UTCJeffrey de Fourestier Expert
I think Tony makes a valid point in all due respect. I would like to point out that Povarennykh took it upon himself to rename all minerals based on their crystallochemistry. This would have eliminated an enormous number of names given by their authors to honour someone or something. Thankfully his system was not accepted and the names he created are almost unknown outside a small circle.
I still believe that it is neither necessary nor defensible to change names like hancockite. Even the most amateur mineralogist understands the insertion in an abstract on hancockite - "Pb-analogue of epidote", for example. Another example, as the group was mentioned above, was the renaming of pengzhizhongite, which –yes – is a Mg-analogue of nigerite. It was named by the ones who described the mineral, chose the name, sought and received IMA approval, to honour one of China's greatest mineralogists and certainly its greatest crystallographer. Yet with a simple vote by, which must be said, is a very exclusive group of people, swept away into my dustbin a name that should never have been placed there. Renaming it magnesionigerite didn’t contribute anything and if anything took something very precious away.
Names that were created in another age and were spurious from the get go are fair game but not well established names for sound species. If the original author were to apply for a renaming based on the fact that he may feel there is a better name for whatever valid reason, would this name be so readily changed? Not necessarily. And that is the point - it is NOT NECESSARY. We are on the edge of a slippery slope. Why not rename all mineral names to something else. Lord knows, we could adopt the nomenclature used by chemists. Quartz could become “β-hexa-silicondioxide�? Why not? We should not! Perhaps this is an extreme analogy, but I would like to emphasize that we should side on caution before agreeing to any radical name change for a species, however logical it may seem at a given moment. This was also the view of the founding fathers of modern mineral nomenclature.
After reading early attempts to make nomenclature more “logical�, I was convinced that the IMA’s former conservativism in the renaming of minerals was the correct line. If Leonard Spencer, who I once described as the spiritual father of the IMA and our present-day nomenclature, were alive today, I believe he would be saddened by this recent trend. (I would invite those interested to read my brief history.) Quite honestly I have worked very hard to avoid more names being created unnecessarily and such renaming doesn't help anyone in my view.
Put me down as a conservative.
11th Oct 2007 03:09 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager
On the other hand there is no punishment for ignoring such decisions. Franklin collectors will probably continue to use the name hancockite regardless. So, if the current trend continues, we will end up like other disciplines such as zoology, where every species has two names, a "common" one used in ordinary discourse and a "scientific name" for academic affairs. The fact that the "habu snake" is also "Trimeresurus flavoviridis" causes no confusion between zoologists and snake collectors. None of them are bothered by the existence of two names for the same animal. Why does this cause such panic in the mineralogical community? Long live "hancockite" and long live "epidote-Pb"!
A recent article by Tony Nikischer in Mineral News has some interesting commentary on the hancockite decision:
http://mineralnews.com/articles.htm
12th Oct 2007 14:33 UTCTony Nikischer 🌟 Manager
When Joe was chairman of the CNMMN, he was relentless in urging the dealer community to be precise and up to date in the use of mineral nomenclature, and it is, in fact, one of the very reasons the IMA exisits - to bring order and authority to the naming of mineral species. While we dealers and collectors are free to ignore the IMA's nomenclature decisions, that would only erode the considerable effort and progress made by all concerned over the past few decades.
Nonetheless, when a poor decision is made, such as the one involving the discarding of a legitimate mineral name with historical precedent, it is also our responsibility to speak out rather than just ignore the decision. My article in Mineral News that you referenced above is part of that necessary dissent.
20th Jan 2012 02:32 UTCJeffrey de Fourestier Expert
I seriously do not think this is an issue of emotional sobbing (not to say that I believe most sobbing is emotional). However, I wrote my glossary in an effort to prevent the unecessary creation of new names. Too know this one just has to read my introduction. After Joe Mandarino reviewed the book he criticised me that I was creating new names because I used (?) where I didn'y know the correct REE for a Levinson modified name. During one of our first conversation we actually came to realise that in fact we were equally conservative when it came to nomenclature. I hope that if he is looking down from somewhere that I am justly continuing the values he instilled in me.
It is mentioned above that it was known for a long time that hancockite was the Pb analogue of epidote. In fact, if anyone takes the time to read the original description, the author states directly that the new mineral he named in honour of Hancock was the "lead analog of epidote". I am saddened that I would be referred to in order to justify the reation of new names for already named species unless there is a redescription or something major that would justify it. That is not the only case with this mineral and many others that did not need to be renamed. (Also mentioned above).
What this zeal to rename minerals when groups are redefined also has caused that I find disturbing is that names are indicated for hypothetical members not found in nature. This too, I find reprehensable. Anyone who knows anything about me knows that I am staunchly against renaming without respecting scrupiously very narrow and exceptional indications.
I have also been spurned on by at least one case I have come across of a name where the species was renamed without consulting the original author who was still alive. This disrepected the person whose name was removed from the species but also the scientist who bought this species to recognition. I could go on.
It is bad enough that I would be associated in the same sentence with Bayliss who himself created many unnecessary names and even discredited a whole series of valid IMA recognised names without IMA approval (If anybody wants I can send them the list and they can check it for themselves).
There will always be new names. Sometimes because of human error or because of justifiable requirement. Sadly after all this time we still have not seen a full return to full respect of the IMA's own rules. I would hope that peerhaps an IMA subcommittee could be struck that would try and repair some of the damage.
23rd Jan 2012 07:46 UTCHans Kloster
Local names like old danish mineral names were translated from german miners and used today. In german they often, but not systematic, use k where c is used in english. The Terms in the bible and the miners explanation is rather naive then rational. So please, forget the national pride and use the IMA english for all minerals.
29th Jan 2012 00:48 UTCJeffrey de Fourestier Expert
The IMA, with all due respect, is just wrong on this one and I think no one should take offence if the original name simply takes precedence as has been done with countless other cases where precedence was determined. According to the IMA's own rules the name that has precedence when there is more than one name and there is no new determination giving justification for a name change it is the one that can be shown to be the oldest in the scientific literature. Hence, realgar is not realgarite, stibnite is not antimonite and galena is not galenite following previous attemps to "regularize" or make names more "logical" or, as Burke states, to be "consistent". It is clear that there is nothing new in describing hancockite as the lead dominant analog of epidote recognised by everyone ever since it was discovered. Not for "decaded" but for over a century! Therefore, hancockite has precidence and Epidote-(Pb) should be religated to where it belongs - with all the other superfluous names.
To quote Burke in citing my work (eroneously I might add) "for the more or less emotional sobbing on the disappearance of historical names: please take a good look at the compilations authored by ... Jeffrey de Fourestier, and if you like to do so, please weep about all historical names which have been shown to be superfluous in the past 50 years". In discarding the name that does not have precidence no one should weep the discarding of the obsolete name "epidote-(Pb)".
29th Jan 2012 01:33 UTCSteven Kuitems Expert
Steve.
29th Jan 2012 04:14 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager
29th Jan 2012 04:33 UTCD Mike Reinke
Mike
31st Jan 2012 04:38 UTCJeffrey de Fourestier Expert
By inventing names that are not necessary one is not creating order out of chaos rather one is creating chaos out of order. I would like to point out that hancockite is only one example as there are others. Perhaps there needs to be a more formalised method by which one could petition the commission to consider the reinstatement of names.
31st Jan 2012 06:29 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager
31st Jan 2012 09:32 UTCKeith Compton 🌟 Manager
I know I am being a bit flippant and I am not meaning to be disrespectful in any way to these esteemed individuals but why not start a move to change the names of the minerals named after the members of the IMA.
Perhaps then they may see that keeping the current “old” names – makes as much sense as changing them:
E.g.:
Pete Williams . Petewilliamsite Could become: Asnicoite (simply referring to its elements)
Marco Pasero .. Paseroite Could maybe become: Senaite-(V)
Akira KATO .... Katoite Perhaps could become: Hydroxy grossular
Ernst A.J. BURKE
Not named after him but has his name anyway Burkeite could become:... Sulphohalite –(carbontrioxide)
Joel D. GRICE.... Griceite with the formula LiF ... Perhaps could simply become … Thatslifeite
;-)
Cheers
31st Jan 2012 14:23 UTCReiner Mielke Expert
3rd Feb 2012 01:18 UTCJeffrey de Fourestier Expert
14th Feb 2012 12:08 UTCKeith Compton 🌟 Manager
I hadn't picked up on that one
As I believe it has to be stored in a very cold place perhaps simply rename it as ... Ice-(Mg) !!
I know, just being even more flippant!!
More wine please !!
Cheers
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Copyright © mindat.org and the Hudson Institute of Mineralogy 1993-2024, except where stated. Most political location boundaries are © OpenStreetMap contributors. Mindat.org relies on the contributions of thousands of members and supporters. Founded in 2000 by Jolyon Ralph.
Privacy Policy - Terms & Conditions - Contact Us / DMCA issues - Report a bug/vulnerability Current server date and time: April 26, 2024 09:01:22